PROBLEMS WITH SOCRATES' ARGUMENT Socrates, however, has a problem with the gods having any need of sacrifices from us. the quality or state of being pious: saintly piety. the holy gets approved (denotes the action that one is at the receiving end of) for the reason that it's holy, AND IT IS NOT THAT Then when Socrates applies the logic of causal priority to the definiens: being loved by the gods, summed up as the 'god-beloved', he discovers that the 'holy' and the 'god-beloved' are not the same thing. Euthyphro's definition: 'to be pious is to be god-loved' is logically inadequate. MELETUS, one of Socrates' accusers/ prosecutors Elenchus: How can we construe "looking after" in this definition? Pleasing the god's is simply honor and reverence, and honor and reverence being from sacrificing, piety can be claimed to be beneficial to gods. Meletus - ring comp is one of the great questions posed in the history of philosophy. As a god-loved thing, it cannot be true that the gods do not love P, since it is in its very definition. "For fear of the gods" That is, Euthyphro should fear the gods for what he is doing. "Summary and Analysis of Plato's 'Euthyphro'." Euthyphro's second definition, before amended by Socrates, fails to meet this condition because of the variety in the gods' judgements. Definition 3: Piety is what all the gods love. Socrates questions whether this is the only example of piety or if there are other examples. This is merely an example of piety, and Socrates is seeking a definition, not one or two pious actions. o 'service to shipbuilders' = achieves a boat - kennel-master looking after dogs With the suggestion that the gods 'are not the active cause of [something] being [holy], the traditional divinities lose their explanatory role in the pursuit of piety (or justice, beauty, goodness, etc.)' IT MAY MAKE SENSE TO TRANSLATE THIS AS ACTIVE SINCE THE VERB DENOTES AN ACTION THAT ONE IS RECIPIENT OF THE principle of substitutivity of definitional equivalents + the Leibnizian principle. 'I am trying to say this, that if something is coming to be so or is being affected, then its not the case that it gets to be so because its coming to be so, but that it's coming to be so, because it gets to be so, nor that it gets affected because it's being affected, but that it's being affected because it gets affected.' Myanmar: How did Burmese nationalism lead to ethnic discrimination in Myanmar despite moves toward democracy in that country? Euthyphro's first definition of piety is what he is doing now, that is, prosecuting his father for manslaughter (5d). It can't be the sort of care a dog owner gives to its dog since that aims at improving the dog. Our gifts are not actually needed by them. Socrates points out that while that action might be considered pious, it is merely an example of piety not a general definition of piety itself. Socrates proves that justice has a wider distribution that piety through his method of inversing propositions. Both gods and men quarrel on a deed - one party says it's been done unjustly, the other justly. This definition cannot contradict itself and is therefore logically adequate. This is mocked by Aristophanes in Clouds. PIETY IS A SPECIES OF THE GENUS "JUSTICE" Piety is doing as I am doing; that is to say, prosecuting any one who is guilty of murder, sacrilege, or of any similar crime-whether he be your father or mother, or whoever he may be-that makes no difference; and not to prosecute them is impiety. So why bother? - when socrates asks Euthyphro to what goal's achievement services to the gods contributes. If the business of the gods is to accomplish the good, then we would have to worry about what that is. An example of a definition that fails to satisfy the condition of universality is Euthyphro's very first definition, that what he is doing is pious. (eli: the key is the right one is: BECAUSE IT GETS) Objection to first definition: Euthyphro gave him an example of holiness, whereas Socrates asked for the special feature (eidos)/ STANDARD (idea) through which all holy things are holy. This is clearly contradictory to the earlier assertion that there is one standard for piety, and concordantly for impiety since the impious is that which is not pious. In this way, one could say that piety is knowledge of how to live in relation to the gods. dutiful respect or regard for parents, homeland, etc. In contrast to the first distinction made, Socrates makes the converse claim. The close connection between piety and justice constitutes the starting-point of the fourth definition and also has been mentioned, or presupposed at earlier points in the dialogue. 4) Socratic conception of religion and morality conclusion "looking after" = aims at benefit of the gods At the same time he stipulates, "What they give us is obvious to all. He therefore proves that the two are not mutually exchangeable. There is for us no good that we do not receive from them." 4th definition: Piety is that part of justice concerned with caring for the gods. Therefore Socrates argues in favour of the first proposition, that an act is holy and because it is holy, is loved by the gods. Striving to make everyone happy. If the sentence is correct as written, write CCC in the blank. Select one of these topics related to nationalism and ethnic discrimination: Write in the blank the verb in parentheses that agrees with the subject of each sentence. Socrates asks Euthyphro to consider the genus and differentia when he says: 'what part of justice is the holy?' Soc: Everything that is holy/ unholy has one standard which determines its holiness/ unholiness. The genus = justice According to the lecture, piety is a term that refers to what it means to be good or holy in the eyes of the gods. Euthyphro welcomes these questions and explains that piety is doing as he is doing, prosecuting murderers regardless of their relations. Add dashes where necessary. Using the theory of 'causal priority', does one place priority in the essence of the object loved, or the god's love? his defining piety in conventional terms of prayer and sacrifice. Rather, the gods love pious actions such as helping a stranger in need, because such actions have a certain intrinsic property, the property of being pious. A self defeating definition. 7a Elenchus (Refutation): The same things are both god-loved and god-hated. Euthyphro refuses to answer Socrates' question and instead reiterates the point that piety is when a man asks for and gives things to the gods by means of prayer and sacrifice and wins rewards for them (14b). I strongly believe that, in the concluding section of the dialogue, his intention is to shed light on the characteristics which are essential to a definition of piety. Euthyphro objects that the gifts are not a quid pro quo, between man and deity, but are gifts of "honour, esteem, and favour", from man to deity. It is also riddled with Socratic irony: Socrates poses as the ignorant student hoping to learn . The Euthyphrois typical of Plato's early dialogues: short, concerned with defining an ethical concept, and ending without a definition being agreed upon. Euthyphro is therebecause he is prosecuting his father for murder. 100% (1 rating) Option A. Socrates pours scorn on the idea that we can contribute to the gods' work (or happiness) in any way whatsoever. a pious act, remark, belief, or the like: the pieties and sacrifices of an austere life. Euthyphro, as 'an earnest and simple believer in the old traditional religion of the Hellenes' , is of the belief that moral questions ought to be 'settled by appeal to moral authorities--the gods' and that 'holiness' 'is to be defined in terms of the gods' approval' . ', a theory asserting that the morally right action is the one that God commands. Euthyphro gets frustrated and leaves Socrates posits the Form of Holiness as that which all holy deeds have in common Euthyphro acknowledges his ignorance and asks Socrates to teach him more Euthyphro accuses Socrates of impiety and calls him to court PLUS Notes See All Notes Euthyphro Add your thoughts right here! It recounts the conversation between the eponymous character and Socrates a few weeks before the famous trial of the latter. Socrates says he is claiming the OPPOSITE of what was said by the poet From the start of the concluding section of the dialogue, Socrates devotes his attentions to demonstrating to Euthyphro 'the limitations of his idea of justice [] by showing Euthyphro a broader concept of justice and by distinguishing between piety and justice' . Soc then asks Euthyphro the precise kind of division of the just that is holy. d. Striving to make everyone happy. Socrates says that since humans ask them for the things they need, surely the correct kind of giving would be to bestow upon gods in return the things which they happened to need from humans. A self defeating definition. However, by the end of the dialogue, the notion of justice has expanded and is 'the all-pervading regulator of human actions' . How to describe it? Indeed, it is hard to believe that Euthyphro, after reaching a state of , abandoned his traditional religious outlook. Socrates presses Euthyphro to say what benefit the gods perceive from human gifts - warning him that "knowledge of exchange" is a species of commerce. the gods might play an epistemological role in the moral lives of humans, as opposed to an ontological or axiological one. - Whereas gets carried denotes the action that one is at the receiving end of - i.e. Eidos is used which is another of Plato's terms for his Ideas, often translated 'Form'. The three conditions for a Socratic definition are universality, practical applicability, and essence (according to Rabbas). Etymology [ edit] Socrates: Socrates says that Euthyphro has now answered in the way he wanted him to. 1st Definition: Piety is what Euthyphro is doing now, namely prosecuting wrongdoers. Fourth definition (holiness is a part of the right) - Euthyphro does not clearly understand the relationship between holiness and justice. The main explanation for this is their difference in meaning. Socrates says that he is mistaken and that it is Euthyphro's statements that do so - he likens them to the work of his predecessor Daedalus. c. That which is loved by the gods. a. Therefore Soc says E believes that holiness is the science of requests (since prayer is requesting sthg from the gods) and donations (since sacrifice is making donations to them) to the gods. Socrates professes admiration for Euthyphro's knowledge. Although Socrates' argument is generally logical, it relies upon 'a purgation of subjectivity from divine principles'. Choose the letter of the word that is the best synonym, or word with the same meaning, for the first word. his defining piety in conventional terms of prayer and sacrifice. The second inadequacy that Irwin sets out is moral inadequacy. Socrates and Euthyphro meet before Socrates goes to court and Euthyphro takes his father to court so Socrates can have a better understanding of what piety means How do they meet ? To further elaborate, he states 'looking after' in terms of serving them, like a slave does his master. Soc THEREFORE a. (EVEN THOUGH THE LAST ONE IS DIFFICULT TO TRANSLATE), Analogies with the grammatical distinction of the active and passive voices and then inflected passives, which enable Socrates to question where the causal priority lies in the statement: is the holy loved by the gods because it is holy, or is the holy holy, because it is loved by the gods? It seems to be with reference to the one 'idea' that both things holy and things unholy are recognised. For instance, when asked what human beingscan givethe gods, he replies that we give them honor, reverence, and gratitude. Retrieved from https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-euthyphro-2670341. Explore Thesaurus 2 pieties plural statements that are morally right but not sincere Socrates says that he doesn't believe this to be the case. But according to Euthyphro's definition, that would mean that those things are both pious and impious, since they are approved of by some gods and disapproved of by others. In order for Socrates' refutation of the inference to be accepted, it requires one to accept the religious and moral viewpoint it takes. That could well complete the definition of piety that Socrates was looking for. Socrates' Objection: The notion of care involved here is unclear. Moreover, both men radically oppose one another in their religious views: Euthyphro is an exponent of the traditional Athenian religiosity, whereas Socrates represents new intellectualism. Therefore, again, piety is viewed in terms of knowledge of how to appease the gods and more broadly speaking, 'how to live in relation to the gods' . Some philosophers argue that this is a pretty good answer. obtuse: (a) intense, (b) stupid, (c) friendly, (d) prompt. On Euthyphro's suggestion that 'everything which is right is holy' (11e), Socrates makes the following logical arguments. But we can't improve the gods. Things are pious because the gods love them. Transcribed image text: Question 13 (1 point) Listen In the Euthyphro, what kind of definition of piety or holiness does Socrates want Euthyphro to give? Euthyphro Euthyphro is one of Plato's early dialogues, dated to after 399 BC. (he! 12a If it's like the care an enslaved person gives his enslaver, it must aim at some definite shared goal. Socrates argues in favour of the first proposition, that an act is holy and because it is holy, is loved by the gods. This is what makes them laugh. 15d-15e. Euthyphro proposes (6e) that the pious ( ) is the same thing as that which is loved by the gods ( ), but Socrates finds a problem with this proposal: the gods may disagree among themselves (7e). Socrates expresses his disappointment, both treating Euthyphro's answer as willing avoidance ("you are not keen to teach me") and as a digression from the proper approach ("you turned away"). Euthyphro is not going to admit, as Socrates would not, that the gods are actually benefited by our sacrifices. Euthyphro objects that the gifts are not a quid pro quo (a favour or advantage granted in return for something), between man and deity, but are gifts of "honour, esteem, and favour", from man to deity. - When Euthyphro suggests that 'everything which is right is holy' (11e), aka the traditional conception of piety and justice as 'sometimes interchangeable', Socrates proves this wrong using the Stasinus quote. Evidence of divine law is the fact that Zeus, best and most just of the gods. In Euthyphro's definition he asserts that the pious is loved by the gods, but this is a result of the thing being pious, not a property that it has that causes it to be pious. The conventionalist view is that how we regard things determines what they are. And, if there is "no good" that we do not get from the gods, is this not the answer to the question about the gods' purposes? Being loved by the gods is what Socrates would call a 'pathos' of being pious, since it is a result of the piety that has already been constituted. 2nd Definition:Piety is what is loved by the gods ("dear to the gods" in some translations); impiety is what is hated by the gods. For his proposed Socratic definition is challenging the traditional conception of piety and drawing attention to its inherent conflicts. - 1) if the holy were getting approved because of its being holy, then the 'divinely approved' too would be getting approved because of its being 'divinely approved' However, he points out that the gods have quarrels and disputes with one another. Socratic irony is socrates' way of pointing out that, Euthyphro has been careless and inventive about divine matters. Euthyphro's relatives think it unholy for a son to prosecute his father for homicide. BUT Socrates shows to Euthyphro that not everyone, however, admits that they are wrong, since they do not want to pay the penalty. The Euthyphro Question represents a powerful criticism of this viewpoint, and the same question can be applied. A morally adequate definition of piety would explain what property piety has that sets it out from other things; Can we extract a Socratic definition of piety from the Euthyphro? These three criteria are not stated explicitly in the dialogue by Socrates, nor does Euthyphro initially acknowledge them, but he recognises their validity in his own argumentative practice4: he justifies his own actions by referring to some general criterion5; he acknowledges contentious questions must be decided on rational grounds6; he attempts to fix his second proposal by referring to some norm that the gods do in fact all agree on7; and he assures Socrates he is capable of giving a satisfactory answer to his question i.e 'the request for a practicable normative standard for rational practical deliberation'8. Socrates questions Euthyphro about his definition of piety and exposes the flaws in his thinking. Taylor explains that once justice, or rather, the adjective hosios is viewed as interchangeable with eusebes, ("well-disposed towards the gods", "religious"), as it has been traditionally , the social obligations which were contained in justice become understood. Definition 1: Piety is doing what I am doing now, 5d Objection: does not have proper form. 11c It therefore should be noted that Socrates regarded the previous line of questioning as heading in the right direction. Socrates then complicates things when he asks: Definition 2: Piety is what is agreeable to (loved by) the gods. After five failed attempts to define piety, Euthyphro hurries off and leaves the question unanswered. For example, he says: The first essential characteristic of piety. 3) Lastly, whilst I would not go as far as agreeing with Rabbas' belief that we ought to read the Euthyphro as Plato's attempt to demonstrate the incoherence of the concept of piety 'as a practical virtue [] that is action-guiding and manifests itself in correct deliberation and action' , I believe, as shown above, that the gap between Socrates and Euthyphro's views is so unbridgeable that the possibility of a conception of piety that is widely-applicable, understood and practical becomes rather unlikely. 3) essence Socrates' reply : Again, this is vague. 15b+c = Socrates again accuses Euthyphro of being like Daedalus since his 'stated views are shown to be shifting rather than staying put'. Euthyphro is one of Plato's earliest Socratic dialogues. BUT gods have quarrels and disputes with one another. Euthyphro is a dialogue between Socrates and a traveling cleric. He probably will enjoy shocking people with his outrageous behavior and argument. But when it comes to the actual case, Euthyphro will not be able to say why his murdering servant died unjustly. Euthyphro by this is saying that the gods receive gratification from humans = the same as saying piety is what (all) the gods love - definition 2 and 3, What does Euthyphro mean when he says that piety is knowledge of exchange between gods and men. Moreover, a definition cannot conclude that something is pious just because one already knows that it is so. In this case, H, a hot thing, has a high temperature. This is a telling passage for Socrates's views about the gods. Elenchus: Although Socrates rejects this and does not delve further into knowledge, I believe that, following the famous socratic doctrine virtue is knowledge, that knowledge is mentioned here to get the audience to think about the importance of knowledge with regard to moral virtue - whether towards the gods or other others. Euthyphro is overconfident with the fact that he has a strong background for religious authority. Euthyphro has no answer to this, and it now appears that he has given no thought to the actual murder case at all. For people are fearful of disease and poverty and other things but aren't shameful of them. piety Definitions and Synonyms noun UK /pati/ Word Forms DEFINITIONS 2 1 uncountable strong religious belief and behaviour Synonyms and related words Beliefs and teachings common to more than one religion absolution angel angelic . 2nd Definition : Piety is what is loved by the gods ("dear to the gods" in some translations); impiety is what is hated by the gods. reverence for God or devout fulfillment of religious obligations: a prayer full of piety. - Problem of knowledge - how do we know what is pleasing to all of the gods? Euthyphro is overconfident with the fact that he has a strong background for religious authority. Plato was a student of Socrates and a teacher of Aristotle. Moreover, being god-loved is a ('effect', or accidental feature) of piety, rather than its , since it happens as a result of its existing characteristics. 'I'm a slower learner than the jurymen' 9b . These are references to tales in Hesiod's Theogony. Europe: How has ethnic nationalism in some democratic European countries fueled discrimination toward minorities in those countries in recent years? Euthyphro is certain that he already knows what piety is. 8a Definition 3: Piety is what all the gods love. Although Socrates generally gets the better of Euthyphro, some of what Euthyphro says makes a certain amount of sense. His father sent for an Interpreter to find out what to do, but did not care much about the life of the man, since he was a murderer and so the worker died from starvation, exposure and confinement.
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