I have thoroughly read and understand Article 35 of the NYS Penal Law. This is what I was told. Agree with the training recommendation. During normal times though I think it's possible to get an unrestricted permit from any upstate county. Upon receipt of my Pistol Permit, I plan to take additional firearm instruction and live-fire courses. It may not display this or other websites correctly. - Erie County Clerk Michael P. Kearns . Letter received - March 18, 2021 -- Day 92 From delivery Unrestricted - Thanks to FTWNY.com, The best Pistol Permit class! I highly recommend the Firearms Training of WNY course. I say go with what you have. Thought this might be helpful since Ive seen a lot of users recently asking about what to put in their just cause letter when applying for their pistol permit. Even Albany county, which is probably one of the most anti gun counties in upstate, has been known to issue unrestricted. I received an unrestricted permit on the first try in Erie County (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice). "2IfPHA#31x_M5y`8&(c[',5NQ`8i/x1FDh&0!fy|s=9 La N(wOBO.0h"*n6!sPY By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Greetings from a newly UNRESTRICTED Erie county permit holder. % If you initially requested an unrestricted license and the license was issued with restrictions, most Judges will make you wait eight years before they . Reaction score. Privacy Policy. Re-Certification Tuesday, June 21, 2022 pistol permit recertificattion. 7W%LY)&kb8v TA20"n>X,+>=o]^\(+pAh(Xq,TnhB7xiEoe QU(T,L GZ)lf^H$TK Do I Qualify As A Retired Law Enforcement Officer?. Pistol Permits | Erie County Clerk Michael P. Kearns Pistol Permits Pistol Permits Locations & Hours Buffalo Office: 92 Franklin Street, Buffalo, NY 14202 Monday - Friday 9:00 am - 5:00 pm Elma Town Hall : Wednesdays 9:00 am - 5:00 pm ( Plastic Permit Holders Only, Payment with Credit Card Only & Closed 1-2 for lunch ) New Applicants I am writing this letter to request an unrestricted New York State, Erie County, Pistol License. #Wac6/$~TYgP/? Erie County Clerk's Office PISTOL PERMIT DEPARTMENT 92 FRANKLIN STREET BUFFALO, NEW YORK 14202 (716) 858-8785 Option #3 C OUNTY OF E RIE MICHAEL P. KEARNS Erie County Clerk UPGRADE AFFIDAVIT - PPU REQUEST FOR PERSONAL and/or BUSINESS PROTECTION ON PISTOL PERMIT Country of Birth Employer D STATE OF NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: County of Erie Full Name Every New York permit is a concealed carry permit. . Cookie Notice . Can't you just roll with the standard blanket? Chance is pretty slim that you will get unresticted in Erie County. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Click on the link below for the required Forms & Instructions to apply for your Pistol Permit. Following the receipt of a completed application as well as criminal & mental hygiene record checks, the approval or denial of a permit is the decision of the Erie County Supreme Court Justice who serves as the Licensing Officer. Orleans issued unrestricted right off the bat. If you can show proof of training and tactfully summarize your need for CCW as being for lawful purposes only (without getting into too much detail), it may be better than unleashing specific details about your job situation. At the time we had had our target and hunting permits for five years. I am xx years old and have been a resident of Erie County for xx years; having lived in XX,XX briefly from 20XX-20XX for a job after completing my Bachelors Degree at XX College. I got my letter today. I feel my request for an unrestricted carry license is warranted. To apply for New York gun license, you must meet the gun laws' requirements, and they are: You must be at least twenty-one years old. The problem with that migh be if he asks what you company's policy is about carrying and if it is pro 2a or anti. Remember, the more detailed you are with your reasoning, the more holes the judge may be able to turn up. I have prior knowledge that this reason has worked in the past. Site Map Have had ours for about 10 yrs. Good luck. New Pistol Permit Application Process Applicant Requirements You must be at least 21 years of age and a resident of Erie County. Laws and Politics - Firearms/Self Defense/Weapons. Erie County Pistol Permit Timeline. Such as the Intro to Concealed Carry Class, Home Defense Course and the M.D.T.S Live Fire Class offered by [company]. As of October 2020 town of Tonawanda is all 4 anywhere in Erie county. Most upstate counties either issue unrestricted off the bat or have provisions to remove restrictions after a year or so. Through my job in XX, I am often carrying large sums of money in various parts of the city; many times, after normal business hours. if not then I would suggest that you dont say you will get any. <>/Metadata 249 0 R/ViewerPreferences 250 0 R>> They do not take pictures or fingerprint at the pistol permit office. Does anybody know counties that issue Unrestricted permits in NY? The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Having said that, if you can use someone else you probably should. We will sign you up for a duplicate when you appear at the Pistol Permit Department with a list of your guns which includes the make, caliber and serial number of each gun. I understand an unrestricted pistol permit is a privilege and there is an increased responsibility with carrying a concealed firearm. The satellite office will be open Wednesdays from 9:00AM- 1:00PM and 2:00PM- 5:00PM. See the left hand side. Chance is pretty slim that you will get unresticted in Erie County. If anyone knows where I can find . Right now, no counties are issuing any kind of permit or amendment. Location. Good luck. Born and raised in NY but relocated to the midwest (MN) for a year, where I obtained my concealed carry permit. What I believe they are concerned with is are you a responsible citizen? Could you give an update of the "Heller" case? Oct 22, 2013. There some places you should not put your junk into and this is one of them!! Haven't found the answer? Erie County requires a "specific need" to be issued an unrestricted permit right off the bat. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I will sell you my house AND give you a reference for your permit. Erie County requires a "specific need" to be issued an unrestricted permit right off the bat. I am currently filling out my paper work for my pistol permit in NY. Im looking to get some opinions as to how my "reason" sounds for an unrestricted permit. Pretty much I applied unrestricted because my employment situation shows some "special need" a lot of my job duties include having large amounts of cash on me, I have security system and safe codes, am . I submitted my application in the middle of July for unrestricted/ target hunting. We continue to hunt and target shoot on a regular basis. Hey all, just wanted to give an update on the wait times for Erie County's Pistol Permit wait time: Delivered - December 16, 2020 . This will be required for concealed carry licenses issued on or after September 1, 2022. Its important to understand the process, removing restrictions is up to the licensing officer, the Judge. endobj Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Form Needed. #*CU(ZRz@mTfx(3n2-e17lg*e\C D(J I ran into one of your coworkers at the permit office if this is who I think it is. [400.00-2 (f) Penal Law] 4. JavaScript is disabled. I had my interview approximately 2 months later. Process is very, very easy. That's what I did and had no issues. You are using an out of date browser. Unless there is something in your background that wouldn't necessarily stop you from getting a permit but something that makes them nervous. It's just Amherst and easy aurora that are left StableDisaster 2 yr. ago They are cool about unrestricted references they sent me a letter after a simple email request skaz915 I was 9 week at the beginning of the pandemic. <> The conceal carry class is deemed an advanced course and requires that participants have obtained a pistol permit prior to enrolling. Its against company policy to carry on duty. . Please return the completed form to:New York State PolicePistol Permit BureauBuilding 221220 Washington AvenueAlbany, New York 12226-2252, *Please Do Not Send Cash in the Mail (Check or Money Order only), Erie County Clerk's Office 92 Franklin StreetBuffalo, New York 14202, ERIE.GOV Though seldom, Suffolk does issue unrestricted. Erie County Clerk's Office PISTOL PERMIT DEPARTMENT 92 FRANKLIN STREET BUFFALO, NEW YORK 14202 (716) 858-8785 Option #3 C OUNTY OF E RIE MICHAEL P. KEARNS Erie County Clerk UPGRADE AFFIDAVIT - PPU REQUEST FOR PERSONAL and/or BUSINESS PROTECTION ON PISTOL PERMIT Employer D STATE OF NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: County of Erie Full Name Ok. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I've read many threads on this site, and it's still unsure where Erie County's huge delay is really stemming from. I live in the town that I work in and have a high risk of being recognized in public by these patients or family members while off duty. We own a cabin and property in [region of NY]. I also would not mind being able to carry when I travel into the inner city in which I work. I guess lawful defense of one's own life isn't a valid reason in Erie Countythe OP saves lives for a living, but when it comes to saving his own, the County takes issue with that. I would really like an unrestricted/concealed carry permit but know the likelihood is slim. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. kRH5a,aJy"&;O1z(AgGI N0F:P uS8bqv}VH8g &QE? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. NYS CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE CLASS: * If you cannot attend the class you sign up for, no problem, we can switch you to any other date or time. Our ICC class is the exact class that the Judge is referring to in that letter. % JavaScript is disabled. You must give a proper reason for the issuance of the permit. Anything else I'm missing? Possible yes. Right now, no counties are issuing any kind of permit or amendment. My name is [first/last name]. Hell, I might even leave something behind. endobj When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Hey all, had a quick pistol permit question for Erie county. The restrictions are pretty vague. Welcome to the New Erie County Clerk Help Desk! I submitted my paperwork on 7/13. Update for my erie county pistol permit applicant friends i was called by the p.p. Firearms Instructors are required to self-certify in Erie County that they are a Duly Authorized Instructor pursuant to New York State Penal Law section 265.00(19) and that the course curriculum for the NYS Concealed Carry Firearm Safety Training they offer meets the requirements of New York State Penal Law section 400.00(19). Sucks, but getting better. I will check into it. It'll all depend on the judge whether they issue a Target/Hunting permit or Unrestricted permit. They also denied me from getting a bolt action AR pistol on my permit so yeah thats why I asked. Forms & Instructions For Pistol Permit In Erie County. Since every NY permit is concealed, that means you can conceal it on your person at all times. You'll get a more direct and helpful response by asking exactly what county you reside in and will apply. Hoping to get some information from this sub. JavaScript is disabled. You must log in or register to reply here. Sucks, but getting better. 1 0 obj http://www2.erie.gov/clerk/sites/www2.erie.gov.clerk/files/uploads/pdfs/Upgrade_form.pdf, Handgun Maintenance, Cleaning and Gunsmithing. I just moved here, so all of my friends live outside of cheektowaga. A completed training course will suffice as evidence that you have both experience and knowledge of firearm safety. I may be going against the grain here (FTWNY did mention he knew this reason worked in the past, which is encouraging in the OP's case), but I would leave out any details of patient retaliation and other job-related hazards that are an issue while you're off-duty, etc. I know somebody who has one, and I've seen it firsthand. Just a general "self defense" or "personal protection" isn't good enough with the sitting judge. A forum community dedicated to all New York firearm owners and enthusiasts. endobj A forum community dedicated to all New York firearm owners and enthusiasts. Gun safety is a number one priority for me and my family. I am a special Ed teacher however I frequent the neighborhood in which I work during the weekends to shop and build community ties. Any individual who seeks to obtain a concealed carry license for a pistol or revolver will be required to take the 16-hour classroom and 2-hour live-fire firearm safety training course. Erie County Clerk Helpdesk :help desk software by Jitbit. Jim was a big help in getting the unrestricted first time out. Firearm safety was instilled in me from an early age. You do not have to wait any time period to request restrictions be removed. "No person related to you now or ever" is the exact line they use. [C:@@^ -,3tvS"yP_>QiXF#Fy4X: -mWYt5K9;tW/Dj5[&20 G$^VSUGQ@aP#x 8`AN-Aad9p"lM Erie County, NY- Erie County Clerk Michael P. Kearns announced the re-opening of the Erie County Pistol Department inside Elma Town Hall located at 1600 Bowen Road beginning March 16th. You must log in or register to reply here. Possible yes. To put that number in perspective, New York State Police data suggests Erie County has the second highest compliance. My firearms are always locked in a safe, with trigger or action locks, separate from my ammunition. When living upstate would I have to write a letter to a judge asking for unrestricted? Looks good to me. lost pistol permit pistol permit stolen. A change of address requires the permit holder to notify the Pistol Permit Department within 10 days of the change. Sounds like it depends mostly on the judge you get than anything else. Quick steps to complete and eSign Pistol permit application erie county online: Use Get Form or simply click on the template preview to open it in the editor. | In their minds that is what the cops are for. > x5\g One had a good reason, not something a typical person would have, another just said "because I want it" and got lucky. I'm in Cheektowaga. X?p@"v. Starting September 1st 2022, NY State has implemented the new CCIA law. : Our Advanced Handgun Firearm Safety class is exactly what you are looking for. A friend of mine used basically this same reason and got unrestricted off the bat. Has that been discontinued? And if so would my military background and firearm courses qualify for unrestricted? Onondaga County could go either way, but I think they are starting to lean towards unrestricted. It took me so long to get all my references together that one moved before I handed in the app. Training and Consulting, LLC, Eight-Hour Pre-Assignment Training Course, Annual Eight Hour Firearms Training Course. Disabled American Veteran, I Bled for my Country Well, I never got to submit my permit because I couldnt find 4 references in my town. Copyright 2023 Criminal Justice Professionals Training & Consulting, LLC | Powered by Criminal Justice Professionals Training & Consulting, LLC, Criminal Justice Professionals See the left hand side. 4 0 obj Judges often don't give unrestricted anymore because they don't want people to think they're Rambo or something of that nature. New tot this forum. You must be a legal citizen of the United States of America. Here is my opinion on this, Most Judges are not concerned with the "potential" of personal safety. I think it means immediate but if its that far off I don't see them going that far to check. Mostly what I hear is having to apply for an amendment in a year or two to get unrestricted, usually after taking the concealed carry course. Please Visit our Pistol Permit Website for an updated list of all our forms and resources. I would suggest though if you haven't had any formal training that you get some because its good to have. Im an upstanding citizen in the community with high moral and ethical character, as well as a dedicated family man to my wife and XX children. I currently reside in Suffolk county which doesnt issue unrestricted pistol permits at all. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. @KCU7bDC-y&dh'z Va$L&(Ikn*U@#](Nh3c8`B-`d1p$?&Lxl.0`H0 _JYQ&;9|J;wOFBh#c&4|r|`. b)} `%CM>Wyu4BlO8. Ue,':6EG9 Well, my lazy ass has gotten the application finished up and ready to go, heading out to get the app notarized and then heading downtown to drop it off tomorrow. If you are looking for more info about Concealed Carry, gun choices, holster choices, laws and etc. stream He will upgrade a permit after a few years or if you take a class, but you need a good reason to get one from the start. +pr'8/yXOu+RJe"x0'&G*QG3B?!}q&/"&: . The reason clearly states that it is for carry while off duty. I know some people who got unrestricted first time though. | In order to apply for a pistol permit in Erie County, you must be 21 years of age and be a resident of Erie County. 2 0 obj =kOgXo"af=W130r$ b syDMfe0Veer T(fu;Vk!k YXXMz#9:{u`>$$.L3(@fD %S(E]5i00N$K`uT`'@K* N`0`^.AaA! They take the pics and do the fingerprinting down there, correct? ?uZ5b0e%Vj E. and our As for the 1.5 years for permit, they are getting a bit quicker, many of my customers are just under a year. they will explain the fingerprinting process to you at the permit office. Start completing the fillable fields and carefully type in required information. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Heres a sample of mine with personal info removed. I understand there are areas where carrying a firearm would be prohibited by state and/or federal law; which I intend to always abide by. Total turn around time of 14 weeks exactly. This would be convenient for me, however I know a judge will not care about what's convenient for a citizen. He will upgrade a permit after a few years or if you take a class, but you need a good reason to get one from the start. Erie County Clerk Michael P. Kearns Pistol Permits, Buffalo Office:92 Franklin Street, Buffalo, NY 14202 Monday - Friday 9:00am - 5:00pm, Elma Town Hall:Wednesdays 9:00am -1:00pm and 2:00pm -5:00pm (Plastic Permit Holders Only, Payment with Credit Card Only & Closed 1pm-2pm). Otherwise your question is trollish Im thinking about moving upstate Im not sure which county yet but I can say Im leaning more into Orange County. ERIE COUNTY UPGRADE CLASS/ ERIE COUNTY UNRESTRICTED PISTOL PERMIT. <>/XObject<>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageB/ImageC/ImageI] >>/MediaBox[ 0 0 612 792] /Contents 4 0 R/Group<>/Tabs/S/StructParents 0>> All you can really do is submit it and see what happens. If you want to cancel and ask for a refund (it must be done more than 48 hours . MowKh1l-f+T%V)RfCr 0%hWHlmf+X5HuddJ+x;6]oV,N[mM AH2tO[C-gq4366L$,[&t }1odctHlx$sCniY 1|#\'MF$x0 0Xv You must fill out the County PPA-4R (Rev 9/22) application You must fill out the State PPB-3 (Rev 8/22) application. I submitted my paperwork on 7/13. I received mine this year. I know this topic has come up many times and people have asked about timelines. Hoping to get wither a Glock 19 or Sig P365 tomorrow. The Erie County Clerk's Office processes Pistol Permits for Erie County residents under terms of applicable New York State law. You should use your legal address, this is the address that you have your DL under. You are using an out of date browser. New York Gun Permit Requirements. ;{df $>kZfrxxHPAc2&:! As an upstanding citizen in the community with high moral and ethical character, I feel I am good candidate for an unrestricted pistol license. office today in regaurds to my refeance status for a friend of mine they needed my correct spelling they couldnt rean my last name . If you are looking to get restrictions removed from your Erie County Hunting/Target or Business restricted NY Pistol Permit: Our Advanced Handgun Firearm Safety Course (concealed carry class) is the answer. When asked my licensing officer and a county judge that I work with they said that theres only about 4-9 currently unrestricted licenses at the moment in the whole county, most of them are judges, attorneys and one dude has a legit unrestricted license because his life was being threatened and have all the paperwork to back it up and I best believe he shoots competition. My question is Is there anything I can write in order to increase my chances of getting an unrestricted carry permit on my first go around rather than waiting three years of having a clean pistol permit? endobj I told the judge about property in a drug infested area, my military experience (I had a weapons specialty), and over a decade with a target permit. I recently moved back to Southern NY (have my pistol stored in PA) and am looking into obtaining my NY pistol permit. Vouchers do not expire and can be transferred to anyone. <>>> For example, you can be approved for your permit, take this class and get restrictions removed right away without waiting a year or 5 years like you may have been told. Total turn around time of 14 weeks exactly. (No Photo Copies) Pistol Permit Application and Forms. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I do not know about that county but I do know friends who were retired or ex police officers who moved to NYS both had no problems getting unrestricted permits. My wife and I applied for unrestricted NYS pistol permits back in august of 09. Finally got my last reference this past week-- now time to submit! People have used in-laws before or cousins and it has worked, but we would advise against it. EB8,]9aO c,j^8 Come on up to Orange. I received my unrestricted permit in Erie County in December 2020. Otsego County is unrestricted. Sounds reasonable to me. Do you notify the front desk person at a hotel that you have a CCW Permit. endobj The real reason is that during hunting season I would like to be able to carry my pistol from hunting area to hunting area without having to unload and lock up my pistol every time I move. ERIE COUNTY UPGRADE CLASS/ ERIE COUNTY UNRESTRICTED PISTOL PERMIT If you are looking to get restrictions removed from your Erie County Hunting/Target or Business restricted NY Pistol Permit: Our Advanced Handgun Firearm Safety Course (concealed carry class) is the answer. (once referred to as a pistol permit class or handgun safety class). You will use your current address for the application. %PDF-1.5 All do but the distance the State shoves its fist up our ass will vary. Suffolk are not doing the permit process at the moment. As for the 1.5 years for permit, they are getting a bit quicker, many of my customers are just under a year. FYI I'm over 8 months and my references havent been contacted yet. Accessibility, (new applicants will automatically be enrolled), Registering\Deleting\Changes\Transfers\Deaths\Lost or Stolen Permits, Instructions to self-certify as a Duly Authorized Instructor in Erie County, https://firearms.troopers.ny.gov/pprecert, Pistol Permit Reissue (Plastic cards: Lost/Stolen, Poor Condition). Thanks for the info. My question isnt about Erie Co. but i do have a related question about the NYS carry permit process. I have taken the Firearms Safety course twice, both times taught by a New York State and NRA licensed instructor. Please find my most recent certificate attached. If you applied for an unrestricted pistol permit and you only received Target/Hunting or Business and the Judge advised you that you need to take additional training from a qualified instructor to remove restrictions, then our Advanced Handgun Firearm Safety Course (concealed carry class) is the training the Judge is referring to. I had my interview approximately 2 months later. 9. Cookie Notice The last person filled out the state application in blue pen after i handed them my black pen-- then went over it in black after i noticed it. Situation: I have retired as a Military Police Officer after 20 years, and have obtained my Hr 218/LEOSA Identification Card/Credential from the Department of The Army which identifies me as a Retired "Qualified DoD Law Enforcement Officer". NY city and surrounding counties for the most part. Do you have any firearms training? 1 0 obj address change name change pistol permit. I just took a look at their website for the location of the office, but they also mention they do pics too for $10. 2 0 obj So you would use your Buffalo address to apply. That means only 31 percent of pistol permit holders are following the law. x]oFn ".bfCE6q(B#yes/RnoXyy3i/7%D=o>,p, Xl/:|{ExeZpd-ZE&Ml$LRY zf72CHgIT:4QAsGYt~A|4:l,5Kd7~125c k")Ns//TG2={m^Ke%4;Al&tqq8Z#$zj3? However, the County Clerk's Office would be happy to assist: You may go to the NYS Police website athttps://firearms.troopers.ny.gov/pprecert and complete the online recertification or you may print the form and mail it to the NYS Police. 1. [Strike out category which does not apply.] I wish to upgrade my permit to a license to have and carry concealed without restriction. I really don't want to chase these people down again-- was hard enough the first time. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. We were told it would take about four months to get the decision. Just a general "self defense" or "personal protection" isn't good enough with the sitting judge. Since over six months had passed we called the permit department . Pistol Permit ReCertification. 3. 0\%c~+QAufpl eYbB%A 1;dpXYs_AjG%M%(_p_gF*R0lulMVaxBYp>nZ$Kv$f,wg!'0)biWOHFq`2_.A=N=Js5#C`x|!Y%Kx>%{CwNbx:%- xLJa\,zJ)dcVCeB&b\Na8[kE2`Z[|w) jpl_Co>"Lz fXw1f8)CSky4v%q_M+ During normal times though I think it's possible to get an unrestricted permit from any upstate county. SsFA* (Pu+l2tu9?,d91U#qcf9` Pistol Permits | Erie County Clerk Michael P. Kearns Pistol Permits Locations & Hours Buffalo Office: 92 Franklin Street, Buffalo, NY 14202 Monday - Friday 9:00am - 5:00pm Elma Town Hall : Wednesdays 9:00am -1:00pm and 2:00pm -5:00pm ( Plastic Permit Holders Only, Payment with Credit Card Only & Closed 1pm-2pm ) New Applicants You must be of good moral character. I put my application in 9/6/12 and had my interview about 12 months after that. Click HERE for a list of counties accepting our ONLINE Pistol Safety Courses. Is this going to be an issue? You are not required to buy or own a gun at the time of application. It was quite obvious that the original blue writing was overwritten with black ink. He may simply see you as high risk, as someone potentially "more inclined than the average Joe" for taking the Law into your own hands and getting yourself into trouble. Now just waiting for the judge to sign it and then I will be getting my first pistol. I submitted the application anyway and received my license, many months later, with no problems. Please note that this office is unable to recommend specific instructors. You may send a written notification or come to our office in person with your permit to effect the change. Nearly everyone I know that put their paperwork in around the same time received unrestricted. Some say the PD, some say the clerk's office, others say the judge, so who the Hell knows. <> <>/XObject<>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageB/ImageC/ImageI] >>/MediaBox[ 0 0 612 792] /Contents 4 0 R/Group<>/Tabs/S/StructParents 0>> Erie county has actually been pretty good about unrestricted off the bat the last few years from what I saw. Sounds like it depends mostly on the judge you get than anything else.
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